Friday, April 16, 2021

Examining the QBs: exemplar pro comparisons

By Scooter_McG

In the previous article by razoreater I outlined my pro comparison for Justin Fields as Robert Griffin III. Not RGIII as he became, but RGIII the draft prospect. However, RGIII is probably a bit unfair as a comparison as it suggests I think Fields’ career arc will follow the same path. Which got me thinking it might be interesting to provide my exemplar pro comparisons for each of the top QBs in this year’s draft.

It is important to note that no player is exactly the same as anyone else, and therefore no pro comparison is perfect. I also do not have sufficient insight to the player’s mental make-up beyond what is in the public domain, and how these players handle the mental and off-field side of the game will play a large part in their success (or lack thereof). These are just based on my impression of how each of these players play, and similarities to pro QBs that have come before.

Trevor Lawrence: John Elway

Lawrence has been touted as the golden child since he walked on campus at Clemson, and “Tank for Trevor” has been a catch cry for down-trodden franchises for three years, ever since he took Clemson to a National Title as a freshman. He has all the tools you could possibly want in a franchise QB, with a big arm, accuracy, poise, athleticism, intelligence and charisma.

I have seen a few comparisons given for Lawrence, including Andrew Luck, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert and Ryan Tannehill. However, the one I think most resonates for me is John Elway. Like Elway, Lawrence is coming into the NFL as the most heralded of a quality QB class, and is seen as a can’t miss, generational prospect.

Zach Wilson: Brett Favre

Wilson is one of the most natural throwers of the ball I have seen. He can throw from pretty much any arm angle accurately and with pace, and easily toss the ball on the move 50 yards downfield and hit his target in stride. He’s an excellent athlete in terms of body control and movement, with decent speed. And he has yet to meet a throw he isn’t willing to take on... sometimes to his detriment.

I have seen people compare him to Mahomes, which I can understand. But for mine the player he most reminds me off is Brett Favre. Both guys are risk takers that can make ridiculous throws seem easy, and both guys also have a cockiness to them. But this can also lead them to taking unnecessary risks and sometimes play a little out of control, leading to the “gunslinger” label. This may seem like too lofty a comparison, but then these are meant to be exemplars.

Justin Fields: Deshaun Watson

So RGIII is the comparison I have given previously, but as I said in my intro, that is based purely on them as draft prospects. Not what I think Fields will become.

As an exemplar for Fields, I think Deshaun Watson is a good comparison. Fields has a stronger arm, but both players are very accurate to all levels of the field, both players are willing to hold the ball to let plays develop, and both players have the ability to extend plays with their legs. However, both players can also take a lot of sacks as a result of trying to do too much and not always taking what the defense is giving them.

Trey Lance: Steve McNair

Ever since I started watching film on Trey Lance, this is the pro comparison that has kept coming to mind. I have seen a few others too, like Dak Prescott, Josh Allen and Andrew Luck, but McNair is the one I keep coming back to.

McNair played QB with a physicality that was uncommon for the position. He was tough, smart and poised under pressure. He had a big arm that could get plenty of zip on it even when he couldn’t set his feet. He was athletic and strong, able to extend plays, break out of would-be tackles, as well as pick up yards on the ground when plays broke down. And he played his best when the game was on the line. McNair also struggled throughout his career with inconsistent accuracy (especially early in his career), something which Lance has struggled with in college.

Interestingly, McNair was the third overall pick in the 1995 draft. Could Lance be the third overall pick too?

Mac Jones: Drew Brees

Mac Jones gets compared to Kirk Cousins (and Jimmy Garoppolo) a lot, in particular by 49ers fans. I can understand why this happens, but to me these comparisons are unfair given they are also often used as a suggestion of outlining the best he can be.

For mine, the exemplar pro comparison here is easy. While in the latter years of his pro career he was almost entirely reliant on short passes, for the majority of Drew Brees’ career he was an excellent deep and intermediate ball thrower despite having very average arm strength. And the reason for this was that he threw with great anticipation and accuracy. He was also exceptional working the pocket, evading pressure and staying in rhythm. And, of course, as is the case with most Hall of Fame worthy QBs that have needed to rely on their brains due to lack of athletic traits, he was excellent at diagnosing coverages pre-snap to get his team in the right play. All of these are traits Jones showed in college.

I’ve seen Tom Brady thrown around, as well as Peyton Manning, and I can understand why. Those players have won and found success in much the same way. But for me, the similarities to Brees are greater.

So that is my exemplar pro comparisons for the top 5 QBs. I’d be interested to hear other comparisons you think are better for these players, as well as any comparisons you have for other players.

55 comments:

  1. Trey stand for 3. Seems like destiny to me. I particularly liked the, Farve comparison. Thanks, Scooter. Fun write up.

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    1. Glad you liked it razor!

      Trey at 3 definitely works for me.

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    2. Here is what is going to happen:

      The Niners will take Fields at 3, and then the Patriots #15 for Jimmy G, and ShanaLynch will look brilliant in the process!

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    3. If we get #15 plus Fields the league might as well forfeit.

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  2. I've never been big on player comps, but I like what you done here Scooter. But I'd doubt you'd be surprised to hear me say that the one player comp I don't think fit, at all, is the Mac Jones/Drew Brees comp, and I'll explain my reasoning.

    One of my biggest concerns I have with Mac Jones is the same concern I would imagine Bill Walsh would have had - Mac's limited experience. Drew Brees was the opposite! Drew was far more decorated coming out of college. He was a 3 year starter for Purdue, and one of the most decorated athletes in Boilermaker, and Big Ten history. He shattered nearly every school passing record, and conference record, and he also placed himself near the top of the charts for career Div-1A, ranking 4th All-Time (NCAA Div 1-A) in both passing attempts (1525), and completions (942). At the time, he was the only player in Big Ten history to throw for over 500 yards twice, over 400 yards seven times, over 300 yards sixteen times, and over 200 yards an oustounding TWENTY SEVEN TIMES. He also tied RB Ron Dayne by earning Big Ten Player of the Week honors eight times during his career.

    That's a far, far cry from being Mac Jones who is coming out after playing only 17 games, and unlike Brees, Jones played on one of the most talented teams (both offensively and defensively) in NCAA history.

    While there were concerns about his lack of elite arm strength, h certainly had enough zip for short and intermediate passes. The bigger knocks were his small stature, as well as the usual stuff about playing in a spread offense, almost primarily out of shotgun.

    Of course, Drew Brees began to lose more velocity after tearing his Labrum in his throwing shoulder (John Lynch drilled him and another big defender landed on his shoulder while he was down).

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    1. In terms of playing style, and looking at exemplar pro comparisons, Brees is a good example imo. Very similar play style. Similar strengths and weaknesses.

      Your McCarron comparison I personally think is awful, no offense. Not remotely alike. McCarron was the ultimate "don't stuff it up" game manager, letting the D and running game win it. Jones led one of the most prolific passing attacks ever in college football by being an efficient, accurate and aggressive distributor. Completely different roles, and very different players.

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    2. One year doesn't impressed me that much surrounded with that kind of talent. Not compared to doing it for 3 years like Brees did, shattering records over time. That's a big difference. People don't seem to understand the importance of doing over more than 1 season. I can show many quotes of Bill Walsh hating the idea of 1 years worth of track record. That's the point.

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    3. How many one-year-wonders have we seen bomb? .... a million, maybe two million?

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    4. BEWARE of the one-year-wonder!

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    5. You have to factor in everything when comparing prospects, including track record. You can't just compare physical traits, Scooter.

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    6. And, BTW, Brees and Jones aren't even similar in terms of physical stature. Not even remotely. That was a bad comp all of the way around. Sorry.

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    7. Now McCarron and Jones? Same exact size, arm strength. Almost clones physically speaking, only McCarron won more in college.

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    8. So the Brees as a PRO comp for Jones is bad because Brees played more games in COLLEGE, and is a couple of inches shorter. Gotcha.

      Anywho, in terms of Brees the PRO player, as an EXEMPLAR comp he is a good comp imo, as the key strengths Brees had IN THE PROS are the same ones Jones had in college.

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    9. Your bias here is crazy. McCarron as his EXEMPLAR comp? Honestly.

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    10. And seriously - McCarron is a comp for Jones because they are the same height and weight? That is how you base your comps?

      They also went to the same college, surprised you didn't bring that up.

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    11. So .... college track record doesn't go into prospect comparisons? Lol. Only physical body type/traits?

      Brees could do it consistently year after year, that was one of his best traits in college. Jones played in 17 games, surrounded by first round talent. No comparison!

      Sorry, that was not a good comp.

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    12. Only McCarron won for 3 straight years at Alabama. Jones had 1 good year, but only Jones has a beer gut.

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    13. I almost forgot about Mac Jones's beer gut.

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    14. I just find it amazing that you would compare a guy who had one good college season for ALABAMA, and has a beer gut and DUI, compared to a guy who shattered NCAA records 3 straight years for Purdue was a phenom. Lol.

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    15. It's an insult to Drew Brees!

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    16. Man, I thought I was clear in my article, right at the beginning, that this is based on pro player comparisons. Not what they were as prospects. Who they became. And that these were the best case examples (i.e. exemplars) of what these guys may become.

      So yeah, Brees for mine works just fine. It isn't an insult to Brees to say that best case sxenario for Jones looks a lot like Brees. It is an insult to Jones to say the best he could ever be is McCarron.

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    17. Anyway, yes, it is abundantly clear you dislike Jones as a prospect and think he is hot garbage. I personally think you are way off the mark on that one. Time will tell.

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    18. OK, that fair enough Scooter. If that's your criteria.

      I just feel like if you're going to compare players, you should compare the important things, and those intangibles, not just arm strength. There is a "Mac Jones" in every draft, IMO, and they are usually second round projections or later. I guess that's why I am puzzled.

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    19. I never understood giving up three 1st's and change for Mac Jones. If it happens I'm prepared to eat my crow, but boy, oh boy; talk about your self inflicted pressure. I still have him as a 2nd round prospect.

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  3. I do like the Fields / Watson comp. Of course Fields looks bigger. Watson is 6'2" on a tall day and 220 lbs soaking wet. Fields has the stouter physique, he's an inch taller, and about 10 pounds heavier.

    There is one specific quality that I feel like fits these two QB's. They are both pass-first guys who are very comfortable allowing routes to fully develop, even under pressure.

    However, QB guru - Quincy Avery, has worked extensively with both players, and he doesn't like the comparison. Here are his thoughts:

    They’re both tremendously skilled—that’s obvious,” Avery said. “But I wouldn’t compare the two as quarterbacks. I wouldn’t even say they remind me of one another. They’re just on completely different levels.”

    According to Avery, what separates Fields amongst his peers is “what’s above the neck more than anything”—an attribute the trainer observed as a Core Coach when Fields was named MVP in 2017 of the Elite 11, a premier annual competition for high school quarterbacks throughout the nation.

    “The information we loaded up those [quarterbacks at the Elite 11] with, like an NFL playbook, we made it difficult for them. But, I’d never seen someone more prepared to do the things we wanted them to do, and at such a high level, than Justin did,” Avery said. “He not only has the ability to throw the ball and drive the ball, but he can throw the ball with much anticipation—and to do all those things, that’s not something you see from an 18-year-old.”

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    1. I respect Avery a lot, but he hates pro comparisons. So it doesn't surprise me he wouldn't want to compare Fields to Watson (or anyone). But in terms of the way they play the game there are a lot of similarities, imo.

      Regarding his intelligence, when did Avery say that? Was that before he started working with Lance? I only ask because every interview with Avery I have seen in the past 6 months he basically alludes to Lance being on a different plane again to anyone he has worked with in that regard (in fact every regard).

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    2. Yes, he said it back in 2019 I believe, before he was working with Lance. I believe it was Fields first year dominating at Ohio State.

      And there are other reports about Fields off the charts aptitude, that back it up.

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  4. The 49ers should consider themselves fortunate to get a blue chip QB prospect like Fields with a 3rd over all pick. Most years he'd be #1.
    This is not only a golden opportunity for the Niners, but also a rare opportunity to get a QB with Justin Fields upside, outside of the #1 overall pick! And that's why they simply CANNOT blow this, which might explain why they are being so darn coy and secretive even though they probably don't really need to be, unless Lawrence or Wilson get injured between now and the draft, which is obviously highly unlikely.

    Justin Fields will be the pick, and after the draft, the 49ers will be the talk of the NFL in the leadup to the 2021 season kickoff!

    You guys can take that to the bank!

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    1. If Justin Fields is drafted by Kyle, Justin Fields will have the best career of any of the top 2021 prospects AND Fields will be a hall of famer!

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    2. The thing is, Justin Fields has been recognized nationally as a blue chip, top talent ever since high school. It was Fields VS Lawrence, going back to their senior years in HS.

      Lawrence is "The Chosen One", Fields is "The Prodigy", while Wilson is "Johnny Come Lately". Lol

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    3. And here's my comp:

      AJ McCarron / Mac Jones

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    4. I do think highly of Lance, but it's a bigger leap in competition, which probably means he's not ready to start, where Justin would probably beat Jimmy out in camp, if it came to that. Lance takes more projecting for me, but he's definitely an impressive specimen!

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    5. For me, Fields is more of the sure thing, if there is such a thing.

      I mean, did we all watch the same semi-final game? Legendary stuff!

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    6. I've had a hip pointer. They are extremely painful! Extreme pain to twist in the slightest. He threw 5 TD's with a hip pointer and broken ribs. That's super-human! Why aren't more people talking about this kind of thing? It's not just one game. He's the best player on the field almost everytime I've seen him play, and his 2 "poor" games weren't even all that bad!

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    7. And it's a well known fact that he faced tougher competition, by far, than any of these top prospects. Not even close!

      That data is irrefutable!

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  5. Scooter, great article as usual. Would be ironic if we drafted DW2. Assuming the Jets draft Wilson, my head will be spinning if we don’t pick Fields. See the Kurt Warner/Alex Robbins article on Lance in today’s NN.

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    1. Yeah, the Lance breakdown outlines again the key concern with Lance - his mechanics are inconsistent and as a result his accuracy is inconsistent. That's really the main knock.

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    2. Scooter, I'm not too worried about the waist down. That can all be coached and fixed.

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    3. Agreed, razor. Something Quincy Avery said (or it may have been Sean McEvoy) gives me confidence about that - they said this past 6 months is the first time Lance ever received formal QB coaching, outside of what they get with their team. The vast majority of college QBs have been getting formal QB coaching for years to help with mechanics.

      To be where Lance was in 2019 without formal coaching to improve his technique is very impressive.

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    4. Indeed, and that's why I like his upside the best.

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  6. What do guy’s feel will be the biggest surprise on draft day?
    Mine is that the 49ers will select Zach Wilson after the Jets take Justin Fields with pick #2.

    No other (top 5) QB has received as much print as has Fields over the last two weeks. I’m not so sure that the Jets are locked into Wilson as most pundits have assumed. Also, on a PR level, Fields to New York makes sense.

    All the recent build-up on Fields could cast a little doubt on the Jets that Wilson is their guy.
    Some talking-heads are now looking at Fields as the #2 QB behind Lawrence. Maybe this causes the Jets to reconsider.

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    1. Fields has been the #2 qb behind Lawrence for a couple years. Wilson just had a great year, and rocketed up the board. It would be a fantastic turn of events if the Jets did take Fields, but I think that's just wishful thinking more than it is probable.

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    2. I wouldn't be shocked, AES. It does seem a little "off" that Wilson rocketed above Fields as a prospect, considering the disparity in level of competition, and the totality of their work. I like Wilson a lot, as a prospect, but all factors included, he's a little more of a risk for me than Fields, so the Niners should consider themselves fortunate.

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    3. Razor, I know you bought in on Wilson later in the year while he was certainly on fire. But why isn't level of competition factored in? Do you feel like the fact that Fields played with the Buckeyes cancels it out? Because it's also true that the Buckeyes OL stunk compared to the defenses they faced.

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    4. I hope we can all agree that the most objectionable pick would be Mac Jones at #3. Frankly, I'd rather draft Pitts at #3.

      My choices are (assuming Lawrence is gone?

      1) Fields
      2) Wilson
      3) Lance
      4) Pitts
      5) Jones

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    5. It bothers me that Mac Jones is getting more credit than he really should be, all things considered. Do you guys know how many times we've seen athletes who have 1 great season, the proverbial one-year-wonder .... only to fizzle after that?

      I mean, we just dodged a bullet a few years ago after Mitchell Trubisky had one good year, and was considered very accurate coming out because of that.

      Mitchell fricking Trubisky! Lol!

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    6. At least Zach Wilson has some crazy physical traits for a medium sized guy, though his 3/4 release causes me injury concerns, if I am being honest. Knock on wood!

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    7. You say he is a one year wonder, however, he was also good the year before when he took over from an injured Tua. Limited game time, sure, but it's not like 2020 came out of nowhere. He built on a promising cameo at the end of 2019.

      Also... haven't the #1 overall picks the past two years been one year wonders at QB? And haven't both been promising so far in the NFL? Interestingly, Jones often gets compared to Burrow, just not as athletic.

      Not all of us agree Jones would be the worst pick at #3. And no, I would not take Pitts over him. I get you don't like him, but you are honestly over the top with your dislike. I almost want the 49ers to take Jones at this point just to watch your (and 49ers Twitter) head explode! 😂

      If he's the 49ers QB the 49ers will be just fine. Good fit.

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  7. I am not saying a one year wonder can't be a good NFL QB, I'm saying it's a knock compared to someone who has done it consistently for multiple years.

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  8. Jones won't be the pick. I'm confident of that.

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  9. It's either Fields or Lance. Most likely Fields, but possibly Lance.

    Book it!

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  10. We"ll see after Trey Lance his proday.
    my opinion is still the same that Lance has a more advanced feel in the pocket and he knows to use his eyes.
    Fields got years of qb training outside his college this makes it more amazingly what a true natural talent Lance is if you see how much better he got with the nuances in the limited time he had.
    There isnt that much difference in floor between him and Fields but there is a bigger difference in upside so that's why we should draft Lance.

    Also no one can deny that NDS offense is more pro style than OSU offense.

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    1. I can see Lance's upside, without question. I've seen Fields do it much more, and against superior competition, so it's an easier projection for me, but I can see Lance becoming great if he reaches his potential, so I can live with him as the pick.

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    2. What I can't live with is taking the 5th best QB, aka Mac Jones. If Mac fell to the Niners at 12, sure, that makes sense, assuming the other 4 are already off the board.

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    3. A great coach ought to take the prospect with the highest ceiling. And this is especially the case if said prospect can sit and develop for a season. Otherwise, he's just another coach.

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