After Trey Lance's performance and all the talking heads from the Grant Cohn tree opining for more 1st team reps; is there really anymore controversy as to which quarterback gives this team the best chance to win? Not in my mind.
Thursday, August 19, 2021
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"After Trey Lance's performance and all the talking heads from the Grant Cohn tree opining for more 1st team reps; is there really anymore controversy as to which quarterback gives this team the best chance to win?" "NOT IN MY MIND."
ReplyDeleteYep, I've said that since Lance was drafted, as long as JG stays healthy!
GOOD TO HEAR! IMO he'd be a good coach, 9ers should hire him. 49ers' Joe Staley giving coaching a try at joint practices with Chargers.
ReplyDeletehttps://sports.yahoo.com/m/f2104734-2873-36c2-931e-eae22df6bdef/49ers'-joe-staley-giving.html
Hell yea!
DeleteThe SI family tree is merely echoing the voice of their overhyped leader.
ReplyDeleteThe 49ers did not draft Lance to keep him languishing on the sidelines. Trey will play this season and eventually become the starter. But this will happen when Shanahan feels that he is ready.
Some sports writers and fans seemed to have forgotten that we already have a SB QB on the team. I trust Shanahan' timeline when it comes to Trey Lance, not the fans or the talking heads who feel they know more than the 49ers leadership.
Agreed.
DeleteAES
DeleteCorrect me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember these were the same talking head that said they "KNEW" the 9ers were drafting Alabama QB Mac Jones....Proving once again, there's no cure for stupid.
You hit the bullseye!
DeleteLance will get ready a whole lot faster with 1st team reps. Funny thing, Shanahan said the plan is to get him some reps with the 1s this week. Take that as you will.
ReplyDeleteIt's a part of his evaluation process, and he said as much.
DeleteYou've been arguing against Lance getting 1st team reps, yet Shanahan is indicating he will get them. Seems like Shanahan agrees with my thoughts on this.
DeleteAnd to be clear, there is a difference between saying Lance should get 1st team reps to aid his development and saying Lance should get 1st team reps in order to compete with/ supplant Jimmy G asap. Imo it makes a lot of sense to be getting Lance 1st team reps for his development. He's the future of this team. Especially if they intend to be playing him a few snaps a game right from the start. After Lance's impressive start to camp I was thinking he would earn more first team reps as part of a competition, but after seeing him play in week 1 of preseason I don't see that being the case. But since then I have been saying he should still get 1st team reps because they will help him develop. It is what Jack is also saying over at the PD.
Now obviously if he was nowhere near ready then they shouldn't. But that isn't the case - they clearly intend to play him this year and he is clearly further along mentally than they had expected.
How many "situational" plays do you think Lance will get a game? I get his development would take a sharper upward trajectory behind the starting offensive line, but like I told Jack; it's a balancing act.
DeleteMan, feel bad for Carl Lawson. So much talent being wasted due to injuries.
ReplyDeleteYea, the talent is there but the body isn't.
DeleteI don't usually agree with Grant, but I do on this subject. The league has evolved. QB's who win exclusively from the pocket, the Tom Brady's and Payton Manning's, are absolutely a dying breed.
ReplyDeleteEven Jimmy G, with all of his experience, hasn't been a particularly good pocket passer since 2017. He's easy to defend. There's a reason Kyle took the football out of Jimmy's hands in the 2019 postseason.
And BTW, Kyle didn't draft Trey to be the next Time Brady either. If Kyle wanted the best pure pocket passing QB prospect available at 3, he would have drafted Mac Jones. But, Mac Jones is no Tom Brady. And Mac Jones was never worth the 3rd overall pick because of his physical limitations.
Kyle drafted Trey because of his ability to BEAT NFL defenses, and evolve Kyle's offense. And Trey's ability to do that is predicated on his ability as a true duel threat QB. And Kyle has already taken a much less talented duel threat QB and made him Offensive Rookie Of The Year! RG3 came out of Baylor. RG3 had the vaguest, most primitive understanding of NFL passing concepts. But what he did for Kyle from day one is turn Kyle's rushing scheme into the best rushing attack in the NFL. Not only did RG3 win OROY, but he helped engineer the best rushing offense in the NFL (168.3 YPG, #1 NFL ranking). And it wasn't all about RG3 running wild. Having RG3 allowed Kyle to scheme up his other rookie - RB Alfred Morris, into the 2nd ranked RB in the league.
Kyle can do the same with this team. Think Baltimore, only even more dynamic because Trey is a more natural pocket passer than Lamar Jackson, he just needs reps so that he can gain experience early on, and by the time we get to December, Trey's development should make Kyle's offense unstoppable.
And I'm sorry, but Kyle's offense will never come close to reaching that potential with Jimmy G., especially with our shaky interior of the OL. And BTW, when your spending more money on the QB position than any team in the NFL, your going to have some holes on your roster. That's a fact!
The safest spot on the field is the pocket. The less he runs necessarily the better.
DeleteYou write all these long winded diatribes and still don't provide anything backed up by facts. I actually agree with you that the offense eventually will be better with Lance, but your memory of 2019 is flawed at best. The 49ers were a top 5 offense in 2019 second in points scored and Garoppolo was top 5 in multiple passing categories. He was very good that year whether you want to believe it or not. Lance hopefully will become the great player we all think he can but he's not there yet so calm the F*ck down stop losing your mind and just let it play out.
DeleteI disagree Razor. QB's get hurt in the pocket all the time. Russell Wilson and Kyler Murray have both taken a bigger beating outside the pocket, than they have outside of the pocket, because they are very good at protecting themselves from defenders they can actually see, whether they either outrun them, avoided their best shot, or simply slide. The problem in the pocket is that often times you can't avoid pass rushers, and you can't protect your blind side. Garoppolo suffered 2 high-ankle sprains last season, both in the pocket. And had he simply gone out of bounds against the Chiefs in 2018, he would probably still have his mobility today.
DeleteThere is absolutely nothing to be gained, and everything to lose (including confidence) by getting your QB sacked 8 times in a game, like Kyle allowed to happen to his prized young QB on Saturday night (Trey was on pace to be sacked 8 times if he had played 4 QTRS, plus guys were taking big, hard swipes at the football, which tends to lead to finger and shoulder injuries.
And the thing is, if you are simply a legitimate threat to run, you can neutralize the pass rush. And then you can give Trey Lance the amount of time every QB needs find a receiver.
But Kyle made no adjustments. Not a single Zone-Read or designed run.
NOT A SINGLE ONE TO HELP HIS YOUNG QB OUT! WTF?
Matt Nagy eventually did, and voila ... Justin Fields thrived!
Correction: Wilson and Murray have taken more punishment INSIDE the pocket, than they have outside the pocket.
DeleteThe Cohn Clown Crew just like any attention they can get. It's an echo chamber of guys who interview each other and share the same tired opinions over and over on Twitter.
ReplyDeleteShanahan is doing this the right way in not rushing Lance and forcing him to work on the weakness' in his game so when it is his time he can run the system the way Shanahan wants and not rely simply on his legs. Lance has played two games in the last two years. There is no hurry and the kid certainly didn't look anywhere near ready last week. The fans are going to have to be patient and let it play out.
Yep, he needs to get to the point where he's consistent in his mechanics when under fire.
DeleteAnd BTW, people are entirely overreacting to the first preseason game. Go back and watch the first series for Justin Fields. He struggled in his first couple series because he faced heavy pressure. It wasn't until Nagy opened things up for him and got Justin outside of the tackle box and allowed him to make plays in space, that Justin really balled out! As a result, Justin Fields left the football field a more confident QB, after the Bears first preseason game. It was a really good start for Justin's psyche, unlike Trey's, who frankly looked a little shell-shocked.
ReplyDeleteAnd this week you can tune into any sports media in the Chicago area and all you hear are people raving about Fields' performance, and clamoring for him to start over their veteran pocket passer - Andy Dalton.
Maybe that was part of the plan for Kyle? Going into the Chiefs game, Trey-mania was a speeding freight train. The Trey Lance hype was becoming a monster, and Kyle was feeling the pressure.
The thing is, I don't believe young QB's learn anything from taking a bunch of unnecessary sacks. The Chiefs defense was absolutely teeing off on the Niners shaky OL because Kyle tipped his hand early, and Spagnolo figured out pretty quickly that Kyle did not want Trey leaving the pocket and making those unscheduled plays that help set him apart, and make him who he is as a QB. Everything Kyle called for Trey, with the exception of 2 plays, were designed for Trey to operate from inside the pocket. Many of those passing plays were long developing routes.
That's all fine and good unless it becomes obvious to the opposing DC from the get go, and it sure seemed obvious to me. And if it was obvious to me, it had to be obvious to Spags.
It almost felt like Kyle's version of "tough love". It was as if Kyle figured that a "sink or swim" approach would somehow be beneficial for a young QB despite the fact that Trey was playing in only his second organized football game in over a year and a half.
I was actually pissed off because if there is one thing I do know for a fact, it's that the QB's who take a ton of sacks early in their development, usually suffer because of it. And Kyle absolutely could have made things easier on Trey if he had wanted to.
Kyle could have taken the approach of building up Trey's confidence, first and foremost, knowing that the development will come organically. From what I've seen from Trey Lance in terms of talent ... As long as Trey doesn't lose his confidence, he's going to be just fine. And the way I see it, Trey could have been entering this pivotal week vs the Chargers with a lot more confidence than he will be now,.if Saturday had gone lyrics for him. That's what I want. I want a confident Trey Lance, whether he's starting or not. Instead, Trey has to be coming into this week of joint practices feeling a little bit defeated, because it was clear to me that, by the time the dust settled Saturday night, Trey looked like a rattled young QB. He looked she'll shocked to me, and who could blame him, considering it had to feel like his Head Coach made him play with one arm tied behind his back, and I thought it was entirely COUNTERPRODUCTIVE!
Amazing. All this agita after one single stinking preseason game #1. Chill 49R, and work up to your mid-season high dudgeon. Not out of the gate.
Delete49Reasons
DeleteJust a suggestion: Google the word "REACTION," and
"How Reactive Behavior Damages Your Relationships!" At least with respect to KS and the 9ers.
That's fair, guys. My wife tells me that I'm probably being a bit overprotective of the young gun. She reminded me that I may be experience flashbacks related to the Niners' EPIC mismanagement of Alex Smith's development, back in the day. In some respects, she's probably right. I think it's a combination of that, and my concerns about the depth, or lack of depth on the OL. By all accounts, the second string offensive linemen are not getting the job done, and I think there is potential risk to Lance's development as a result. It does seem as if Kyle does understand what is happening, and it sounds as though Trey may get an opportunity to work with most of the ones on Friday.
DeleteI think I'm also starting to lose my mind a little bit because I feel like, after using 3 first round picks (and a third rounder) to move up to draft Trey Lance, his development has to be the #1 priority for this organization, and it doesn't really feel like it is right now.
DeleteMaybe I am being a little too dismissive about Jimmy Garoppolo, but to me, he's the past now. I am not somebody who believes in Jimmy G anymore. I just don't think he has what it takes to win a Super Bowl. In fact, I don't believe he's anywhere near as dependable as he needs to be, and that's not simply based on his inability to stay healthy either. I think all of the stars lined up for Jimmy Garoppolo and the 49ERS in 2019, and they fell short of their goal despite having both the best rushing attack in the league, as well as the best overall defense, IMO. I am not a person who can easily revise history. I remember the 2019 season like it was yesterday. I remember Jimmy got off to a very shaky start to begin the season (and in fact, Jimmy was shaky to start the 2018 season, and he was shaky again to start the 2020 season, before suffering not one, but two high-ankle sprains, which derailed yet another season). I remember that he did step it up a little in 2019, after his slow start, but in reality it was the 49ERS defense that really carried the team in the first half of the season. Jimmy did play pretty well on the road in the rain in Baltimore, and then the following week in the Superdome vs the Saints, but outside of that stretch, it was Kyle Shanahan's vaunted rushing attack, and a fierce defense, that carried the 49ERS as they rolled into the postseason as the #1 seed.
Despite all of this, it was crystal clear to me, and most people who were following the team, that Kyle Shanahan no longer trusted his QB - Jimmy G, and so Kyle took the football out of his QB's hands, until he had no choice but to give the ball back to his QB, but ultimately Garoppolo couldn't deliver a world championship despite the circumstances that led to what was otherwise a magical season.
And I believe Trey Lance has the ability to do what Jimmy couldn't do, provided his development becomes the focus. The Niners can lead the NFL in rushing, with Trey at QB. The things Kyle can do with this kid at QB is almost unfair for the rest of the league, but Kyle can't do it with Trey on the bench. And if their defense is anywhere near as good as I think it will be, Trey is talented enough to keep the 49ers in contention as he develops. Early on, there will be a heavy does of zone-reads, and play-action, with the 49ERS winning the time of possession. And by the time we get to December, Trey will be far enough along that I believe he will be able to do more from the pocket than Jimmy by that point, and that will give Trey a chance to do what Jimmy couldn't do, despite being a rookie.
DeleteBut if Trey isn't afforded the opportunity to play, his development may not be far enough along by the time we get to the postseason, to take this team all the way.
That's my opinion.
I do want to make it clear that I am not saying Jimmy Garoppolo is a scrub, by any means. It's just a business decision at this point. Jimmy is no longer in the team's long term future, for obvious reasons, and his short term future could come a cost in terms of the salary cap, as well as Lance's development.
DeleteTrey is the most talented 49ers rookie QB in my memory, and I don't want to waste a year of his rookie pay scale by paying Garoppolo $25+ million to act as an insurance policy.
And I have to say that a large part of my frustration is about the reserve Offensive Linemen! WTF is happening with these guys?
DeleteAll of the talk I am hearing is about how the reserve linemen are getting their TAILS WHIPPED! So how is Trey supposed to be working on his reads if he has no time in the pocket whatsoever.
It's bad guys. Brunskill is a turnstile, but nothing compared to Tom Compton, Jake Brendel, Colton McKivitz, & Corbin Kaufusi. I don't think I'm exaggerating about this OL!
Am I wrong?
Why is Jaylon Moore playing out of position at OT. The plan was for Moore was OG!
Lance got sacked FIVE more times today, and Kyle is finally "concerned!" Well it's about time!
DeleteHe's talking about trying Trey with the ones tomorrow.
Well, um .... DUH!
That would be a good move Kyle!
Here's a revelation; why not let Shanahan decide when Lance is ready.
ReplyDeleteAt the moment we have a QB who is 24-8 with the 49ers along with a SB appearance.
Not to shabby.
Javon Kinlaw is beginning to worry me! It's still too soon to say, but too many INJURIES are becoming a concern. Lets hope he does NOT turn out to be injury prone?
DeleteOn Aug. 2, when Lance was in the midst of a torrid stretch to start training camp, Shanahan maintained he would “very surprised” if Lance could take over by Week 1 because he was still trying to “learn everything right now and soak it all in.” At the time, it smacked of a coach trying to delay a QB controversy. Nearly three weeks later, however, Lance is showing signs that he’s not immune to growing pains. Shanahan said Thursday that Lance’s messy mechanics in the preseason opener were typical for a young QB.
ReplyDelete“They get in there and they resort back to survive with what they've done their whole career,” Shanahan said. “And sometimes that's a little different at the NFL level. You can't just go out there and play. You’ve got to be exact in your details. Exact in your techniques. And the more you can do (that), that more you make it automatic, then you don't lose it in the heat of battle.”
ReplyDeleteChris Biderman
@ChrisBiderman
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18h
Shanahan also said he’s continuing to challenge Lance to get the ball out more quickly, which seems to be an impediment to getting those first-team reps. The sacks aren’t all his fault but he’s taken a lot in practice and in the preseason game.
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Tim Kawakami
@timkawakami
· 21h
This was one of Trey Lance’s last big opportunities to take big steps toward the starting job in week 1 and safe to say that didn’t happen. Zero snaps with the first team and the second team OL has trouble protecting him.
Some here may get a little flustered. But of all the top rookie QBs that have played so for, Mac Jones has looked pretty darn good. Does that mean that Jones will be the day starter? No. Cam is also doing a good job.
ReplyDeleteJust like Lance, Mac will play when his head coach decides he's ready - not the fan's or hot take, controversy bent sports writers.
day one starter
ReplyDeleteFine topic, Razor.
ReplyDeleteIs there anyone here who'd be willing to enlighten me about the areas in which Garoppolo currently excels over Lance?
Just finish this sentence: Jimmy should start over Lance because . . .
I'll give you mine.
DeleteExperience. Proven winner. Better grasp of the playbook.
24-8 overall record. Playoff and Superbowl experience. Great locker room presence. Highly respected by his teammates. I'm sure that some here have more reasons.
George
DeleteJimmy should start over Lance because IMO, he can
handle the speed of the game better than Lance.
EXAMPLE: Will Trey Lance’s mechanical adjustments hold up?
Kyle Shanahan didn’t have much to say about Trey Lance’s debut after the game on Saturday night, but he did offer a few interesting nuggets during a conference call yesterday.
The thing I found most interesting was a line Kyle mentioned about Lance getting excited and reverting to his old mechanics in the heat of the moment:
“I think he started out good, got a little excited sometimes which he does. And you get a little excited, some of your technique and stuff you lose which will be fun to watch with him. Trey’s a guy who’s tough on himself and loves to correct things and since we’ve had him he’s been very good at correcting mistakes.”
That idea in and of itself isn’t new. However, many quarterbacks have been asked to adjust their mechanics only to immediately un-adjust the second they get into a real game, with a real pass rush.
I think for mine right now JG's processor is faster. Which is to be entirely expected. He can be fooled and throw picks, but he's less likely to take drive ending sacks because he gets the ball out.
DeleteReally, what it boils down to is JG has the experience edge.
As to whether Lance could/ would close that gap after a few games I don't know.
George, he simply isn't ready yet.
Delete"Is there anyone here who'd be willing to enlighten me about the areas in which Garroppolo currently excels over Lance?"
DeleteHere's a laundry list:
Lance takes longer to go through his reads.
Lance may take longer to recognize defenses and may not be able to change the play at the LoS.
Even if he recognizes the D formations, he's likely to have issues with pre- and post-snap rotations by DBs and LBs (and stunts by D Linemen).
Lance has less experience with playing with the Niners' pass catchers. Hence he has less ability to anticipate how the latter would modify their routes based on tight coverage.
Lance has a less compact delivery than is ideal for Kyle's offense.
Any or more of the above would lead to Lance holding the ball longer and taking more sacks than Jimmy G.
As an inexperienced rookie, he's liable to get excited and more flustered that Jimmy G under pressure which would reflect on his pass accuracy.
These are just my quick thoughts. However, Lance is not competing against Jimmy G for the starting job. He's competing against the time it normally takes a rookie QB in the league, especially one as inexperienced as him, to attain the level of QB play and leadership needed to achieve the number of wins one would expect based on team talent. But Lance appears to have all the physical tools, football IQ and work ethic to succeed.
David Lombardi
ReplyDelete@LombardiHimself
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2h
49ers first play of team drills against the Chargers: Raheem Mostert cutback run, blazing speed, 80-yard TD.
Evidently, Mostert was turned loose today and
lasered through the Chargers defense.
Some quotes from Drew Brees courtesy Cam Inman of the Merc:
ReplyDeleteGaroppolo is known for his quick release, and Brees said they talked about that step-and-throw motion after practice.
“He’s got that wider base, very quick in getting the ball out, right? Very quick in through the progression,” Brees said. “It actually reminds me a lot of the way I tried to play the game.
“It was funny, because he said, ‘I watch you and Aaron (Rodgers) a lot. Your ability: foot down, ball out.’ I was like, ‘OK, that’s cool.’ ”
“I’ve met Jimmy a few times, so there was more of a relationship there,” Brees answered. “Meeting Lance, I was trying to learn more about him and what his mindset’s been coming into camp."
“For (Lance), it’s nothing to lose, everything to gain. It’s his first time stepping into camp. Yes, there’s high expectations with that stuff, but every day for him is going to be a learning experience, and probably be that for a while, for a guy who played at North Dakota State and played only 17 games in college.
“There’s still so much to be experienced for a guy like him. Different for Jimmy who’s an eight-year veteran.
“At the end of the day, it has to be the quarterback who is a best fit for this offense, that can execute this offense best. Listen, the Niners are a top-five team and are going to be one of the favorites. A lot at stake.”
It's going to be real interesting if Jimmy were to go down for a couple of weeks whether or not he'd get his job back.
DeleteStill seeing in almost every report that Lance has multiple throws that are high. I hope this is something he can fix. He's young, works hard, studies hard. But at the same time there is probably no time to fix this during the season. Hopefully he can work with a good QB coach/guru to fix this during the offseason.
ReplyDeleteJosh Allen proved it can be done, but you're right; time has run out on this season.
DeleteDespite some early reports coming out of training camp and the fact that it is preseason, Zach Wilson looks good.
ReplyDeleteYea, I imagine it was tough on the kid losing Knapp the way he did.
Delete